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Kryptogal (Kate, if you like)'s avatar

Okay, so you obviously have delved into this research far more than I have or will. I'm very interested in evolutionary theory in general so I'm well versed in concepts like life history and R versus K selection, but I've never looked TOO far into this issue, so I'm not trying to question the expert, so to speak.

But let me just point out a few questions/issues:

1. How exactly would we know when girls started menstruating 200 or 2000 years ago, and how reliable is that information? It's not like most people went to doctors for yearly checkups, prior to about 60 years ago. And it strikes me that families and girls had VERY strong motivations for hiding menarche in their daughters, for most of history. Because I. Most cultures, women were expected to be married off as soon as they had their period. The older men would be sniffing around wanting to snap them up as soon as they were fertile, and it's always been in a family's best interest (and certainly the girl's) to stave that off as long as possible. You can read cross culturally and girls have NEVER liked being married off to old men, yet it as always happened, so one should expect they would lie and hide it as long as possible, if that was the one way to prevent it from happening. It's not like it's hard to hide, or that there were underwear police checking for blood every day. Heck, my dad had no idea when I got my period and I was raised my modern progressive parents who gave me sex ed books. So I'm just not sure you can trust those historical accounts when the incentive to hide and delay admitting puberty was so strong.

2. Also, most people experienced periodic famine (especially those in northern latitudes) and were on the edge of starving for much of history.

3. If girls really got their periods at 16, why were so many married off younger than that?

4. Fatherlessness I take as a point, though this seems like a pretty easy study to do. Is there a simple set of replicated studies on median age of menarche in the US comparing homes with a father in it versus not?

5. Fatherlessness is tricky to measure because living circumstances have been so widely different and single home nuclear families are basically a modern invention. I live in Utah, so if I think about what things were like in the 1800s, it's one father with 7 wives and 80 kids. Literally. I doubt they saw their dada much in that circumstance. And polygamists all married girls off the second they were bleeding, usually around 14, hence the incentive to lie about it as mentioned above. I have the weird experience of having heard from people who left the remaining polygamist communities, and trust me, no 14 year old girl wants to marry the 45 year old man who's already married to half her cousins, she has a crush on the cute boy her age and dreads with all her might having to marry the old man, but is forced on pain of God's eternal disfavor, so all she can really do is not tell anyone when she gets her period and pretend to still be a child.

6. Might the simple sexual cues of an extraordinarily sexual media itself be the cue triggering fast life history? Since the Advent of TV, we've been saturated in sexual imagery and portrayals of sexiness like nothing before in history, and with the internet that's on steroids. Perhaps the cues trigger a "need to compete in the competition seemingly around me" response? Pre 1960s there was essentially zero filmed or photographic portrayals of sexuality, at all. And sex happened behind closed doors. So the general environment was infused with about 1% the sexuality that we see today, and people who didn't want to be exposed to it could easily live an entire life without ever having to be confronted with an overt display of sexuality.

I do think this is all very interesting and I'd love to see more data analysis and studies. But I disagree with Walt's hypothesis that this is the cause of young women becoming turned off to male sexuality. Getting your period 11 months early isn't going to do that. It's just that women know too much now. The internet has revealed exactly the level of depravity out there. And here's the thing...it isn't just young girls. Go on any forum for millennial or Gen X women...they all fucking hate men right now, ESPECIALLY if they're in the dating market and actually exposed to and thinking about men. Every major metro in the country has an "are we dating the same guy" group with more than 50k members where they all compare notes about all the bad behavior of the guys they come across on dating apps. And they all can't stand men because they just know too much. 150 years ago, men hid that shit from women and just went with their friends to the local brothel, and women could only guess at what went on there and never really confirm any of it. Now they all know exactly what guys are looking at and saying to each other, and women are comparing notes with each other online, and it's more reality than they want to know about or can handle.

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OGRE's avatar

From the article:

"Along with the declined age of puberty for girls we are also seeing a catastrophic decline in men’s levels of testosterone, along with all the negative health outcomes it implies, a dramatic increase in every kind of illness that is caused by endocrine disruption, like hypothyroidism, metabolic syndrome, higher adiposity, respiratory problems, PCOS, endometriosis, various fertility issues, low sperm counts, increased rates of certain cancers etc. It is impossible not to see all these negative trends as a cluster of changes that are caused by the same or similar events."

From Mayo Clinic:

https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/nutrition-and-healthy-eating/expert-answers/soy-breast-cancer-risk/faq-20120377

*** So where did the idea come from that soy increases breast cancer risk? Isoflavones, which are found in soy, are plant estrogens. High levels of estrogen have been linked to an increased risk of breast cancer. However, food sources of soy don't contain high enough levels of isoflavones to increase the risk of breast cancer.

Soy or isoflavone supplements, on the other hand, generally contain higher levels of isoflavones. Some studies have suggested a link between soy or isoflavone supplements and an increased risk of breast cancer in women who have a family or personal history of breast cancer or thyroid problems. ***

Soy is used in many foods as a filler. Soy oil is used in damn near everything. The idea that it's not effecting people is unreasonable to assume.

There are many things that are minimally dangerous, but in the aggregate most people are exposed to much higher levels of these substances than one might imagine -- because of their use in so many products.

GMO corn is another example. Sure they don't spray all corn with Roundup, and maybe you don't eat corn on the regular -- but many foods use corn as a filler.

Whether or not this is a malevolent act or not is debatable. Just keep in mind. Monsanto, the company that made the GMO corn that can survive Roundup -- didn't serve it in their own company cafeteria.

We consume multiple poisonous substances from multiple directions on the regular.

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